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welcome to tell us from the rabbit-hole

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and your host mick west my guest today

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is tom tom is someone that I just met

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about a week go online we actually were

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on the podcast of a mutual friend and we

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were having a conversation about 9/11

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and Tom is a believer in some of the

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conspiracy theories around 9/11 and I

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disbeliever in some of the other ones

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and we had to like a very interesting

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conversation about that and so I wanted

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to get Tom on my podcast to kind of

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catch up with what's been going on since

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then it's only a week ago but we will

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see

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so Tom welcome to tell us on the rabbit

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no it's I'm very glad to have you on

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because it was a very interesting

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conversation we had last week around

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9/11 maybe we could kind of do like a

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little kind of recap of what we talked

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about I mean you talked about it

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initially like kind of how you came to

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believe in that 9/11 was an inside job

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essentially right so it was 9/11 was the

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first conspiracy theory I ever got into

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and I think it's the most enduring one

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because you know there's been so much

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activity around it but the way I got

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into it originally because I was not a

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conspiracy theorist at the time at all

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and I was sitting on the sofa next to my

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roommates girlfriend and you know she's

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watching the TV a couple of days after

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9/11 George Bush was on there it's

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looking all kind of and it pleased

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himself when things really seem to be

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going well in going in George Bush's

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direction you know he's getting a lot of

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a lot of support

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he was his numbers were going up and his

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approval ratings and I was just musing

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to myself it said around somebody

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roommates girlfriend and said oh no it

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kind of seems like this 9/11 things been

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working out pretty well for George Bush

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and she had a very emotional reaction

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she I can't believe the u.s. suggests

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they had anything to do with the trading

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this whatever so she she kind of accused

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me of being a conspiracy theorist and

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really at that point I wasn't but her

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reaction was really interesting I guess

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maybe I was like a little bit offended

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by late

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but it really was it was it was an

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interesting reaction I remember just

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going into my in my room getting on my

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computer and Google was a fairly new

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thing back then it was it was in the

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early days of the internet and I just

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googled Osama bin Laden and CIA and I

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just put that in and then you know the

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rabbit hole just opened in front of me

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there was just already there was just a

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million things on there about it yeah so

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like two days after there was stuff

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about 9/11 conspiracy theories online I

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I can't remember the exact date I think

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it could even have been the day after it

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could have been her only site it might

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have even been a week later but it was

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very soon after I feel like it was a day

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after though but it was there was a lot

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of stuff specifically about Osama bin

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Laden here and there was

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yeah then things started progressing

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rapidly they in the news after after

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that and the conspiracy theories

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everything was coming thick and fast the

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information was coming thick and fast I

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can't remember specifically if there

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were a lot of theories about the towers

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coming down controlled demolition I

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can't remember what was really happening

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there what I remember was that there was

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this history of some bin Laden in the

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CIA that and you know the Mujahideen and

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the Cold War and you know the the

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Mujahideen in Afghanistan which was

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funded apparently by the CIA through the

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Pakistani Secret Service and there was

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all this stuff coming up and there

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seemed to be some legitimate links you

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know between between the bin Laden's and

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and our intelligence services and I

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think what it was there really like

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really intrigued me at the very

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beginning was that no one was talking

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about it

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everyone was talking about Osama bin

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Laden but no one was talking about the

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relationship between the bin Laden's and

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our intelligence services in the

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mainstream media and as time went on a

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lot of the feeling that I was getting

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that there was information it was being

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ignored this feeling was getting

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compounded as more and more stuff was

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just being ignored

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yeah so it's interesting like I remember

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you telling me the story the first time

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and I didn't really think about this

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point of that much you know you talk to

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your friend it was sat next to you and

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she had this reaction she kind of got

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angry with you for like you know having

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suspicions and then you you went and you

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looked on the internet and you saw this

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stuff but in a way we used like trying

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to support your initial feelings like

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because your friend had been so angry

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you thought well I better go and check

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this out because like you know she's had

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the strong reaction I should defend

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myself I mean I never went back and

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tried to defend myself against this

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person again and she we weren't close it

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was random chance and and you know I

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guess anyone shouts at you there's

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always going to be some sort of

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indignity a race so so I'm sure there

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was something there that made me go look

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but by the time I was sitting down

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looking at this stuff on it I wasn't

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thinking about her at all

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it was I I'm pretty sure I never spoke

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to her about this topic again it's yeah

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so yeah so but at the same time the

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feeling yeah the feeling was that look

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this whole thing conspiracy theories the

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condensed conspiracy theories it's an

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emotional minefield you know and you

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know this there's like some people get

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addicted to conspiracy theories and you

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know I can imagine how that works and

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and the whole rabbit hole thing you know

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it's what you talk about you know it's

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there right I believe it's there but it

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was so yes I'm sure there was something

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there

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factors to motivate you and into these

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things of course it's like yeah I think

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people often say about conspiracy

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theorists and you know not saying that

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you were doing this exactly is this they

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only look for evidence the supports they

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believe they don't look for evidence

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that disconfirms or falsify their belief

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but usually I think you know you talk

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about falsification before and you do

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actually look for evidence against the

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belief and they say it would that be

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fair to say yeah I think after a so

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looking in tonight 11 I looked into a

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lot of different conspiracy theories and

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none of them oh I believed for a while I

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don't believe anymore

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and some of them are easily disprovable

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some of them you just don't have enough

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in

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Meishan out there it's really verified

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their veracity you know they're so yeah

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so yeah I and I'm always looking for the

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counter viewpoint because what's the

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point of believing something if it's

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easily disproven there's there's no

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point and that that's why it's really

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nice to talk to you because it's very

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rare to talk to someone who I consider

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you a very intelligent person like

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academically fright as well so it's nice

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to talk something like you actually

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knows what they're talking about

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who isn't immediately dismissive and is

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prepared to take you know these

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conversations seriously

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to an extent you know at least lately

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since the arguments and really weighed

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them up and do some research and that's

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I think that's all too rare with a lot

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of these things especially say like with

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Flat Earth and home which I don't

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believe in Flat Earth but I did start

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looking into it and a lot of the people

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who try and debunk Flat Earth they're

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not debunking the the flat earthers the

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Flat Earth has ten steps ahead in terms

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of like what information they they're on

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top of and the people who are debunking

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them is like oh you think you could walk

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off the edge of the earth and fall off

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the edge of the planet and of course you

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know they get the whole theory wrong

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they don't even know what the theory is

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so it's and it's very hard I've always

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found it very difficult to find someone

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who's intelligent who knows what they're

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talking about you can actually have a

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nice conversation with you about about

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if these conspiracies there and so yeah

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it is a problem with the Flat Earth I

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think when what year would you have been

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into it was gonna you know two or three

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years ago or longer yeah I think maybe

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three or four years ago I was I spent a

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month I listened to a video where Eric

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Dubay was being interviewed and he has

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his he comes up with all these all these

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points which just make you think you

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know you know that something two hundred

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two hundred proofs and things like that

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right

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and none of the proofs like I didn't

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think of that and then and then you try

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and look into these things and you find

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is actually very difficult to research a

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lot of this stuff it's very difficult to

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come up with definitive answers

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I think that's why the Flat Earth

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conspiracy theory is being so enduring

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is this difficult to prove or disprove

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like how do you prove that you live on a

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globe how do you prove that you live on

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the flat planet oh you don't think so

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like with with that then if if you can't

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prove you know the if you can't prove

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the earth is flat or the earth is round

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they how do you personally pick which

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one to believe it well I guess it was

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for me I'm just I was I wasn't through

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all the arguments I certainly was very

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interesting but at the end of the day if

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you watch a sunset it says that you

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can't you can't explain away sunset with

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the Flat Earth theory if you just stand

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there and just watch the sunset and that

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was what did it for me and then the

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other thing was one of the things that I

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found quite compelling at the beginning

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it was if they come up with this formula

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for figuring out the curvature of the

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earth

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so like when what if you can see a

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building from like 50 miles away like

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how much of the building you should be

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able to see there's that whole formula

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they have I just realized after looking

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into it for what this formula is like

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way too simplistic there the the formula

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that a lot of these guys are promoting

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it was it was way too simple and so ok

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that was a lie and so listen and I can't

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say that I know anything one way or the

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other I think that's one of the points I

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was making in in our conversation before

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look I'm not saying that I know for sure

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the 911 was the controlled demolition or

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an inside job I don't know these things

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at him and then they might main

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complaint with the whole thing is that

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the conversations never be taken

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seriously and the people on the side of

274
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:35,640
the controlled demolition are the people

275
00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:37,770
who believe that no level was an inside

276
00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:39,690
job or whatever they have some really

277
00:10:42,620 --> 00:10:41,430
good points and they have some good

278
00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:42,630
points so they haven't been properly

279
00:10:48,410 --> 00:10:47,310
discussed and the N is T you know the

280
00:10:51,830 --> 00:10:48,420
National Institute for Science and

281
00:10:53,390 --> 00:10:51,840
Technology who did the wtc7 report they

282
00:10:56,330 --> 00:10:53,400
were fined it was sixty million dollars

283
00:11:00,170 --> 00:10:56,340
they didn't they didn't apply the

284
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:00,180
scientific method fully and they left us

285
00:11:07,010 --> 00:11:04,170
with a lot of questions and and then all

286
00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:07,020
all the questions on the conspiracy

287
00:11:10,220 --> 00:11:08,760
theory side it might have been

288
00:11:13,940 --> 00:11:10,230
completely dismissed people just think

289
00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:13,950
all crazy and life has just gone on as

290
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:16,140
though nothing happened but there's a

291
00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:20,130
lot of people who they have all the best

292
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:21,750
intentions who would love to get to the

293
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:25,410
truth of this yeah yeah we talked about

294
00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:27,330
this quite a bit like you you feel that

295
00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:29,910
this didn't follow the scientific method

296
00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:32,190
because they didn't do an experiment to

297
00:11:35,630 --> 00:11:34,710
replicate the collapse of World Trade

298
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:35,640
Center Sarah

299
00:11:40,310 --> 00:11:38,640
yeah like replication or falsification

300
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:40,320
is important right releasing your data

301
00:11:45,890 --> 00:11:43,290
is important you are saying that we

302
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:45,900
should pay attention to sign a

303
00:11:51,020 --> 00:11:48,450
scientific consensus and that should be

304
00:11:53,420 --> 00:11:51,030
a persuasive thing it should certainly

305
00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:53,430
be a factor I think because if lots of

306
00:11:56,990 --> 00:11:55,110
scientists agree with something only a

307
00:12:01,040 --> 00:11:57,000
very small number of scientists disagree

308
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:01,050
with it then generally you know most of

309
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:05,370
the time for most things then the the

310
00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:07,410
consensus is the correct and of course

311
00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:09,180
science changes all the time like at

312
00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:11,550
some point yeah this all the scientists

313
00:12:14,810 --> 00:12:13,020
believe one thing and they were all

314
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:14,820
essentially wrong and then someone comes

315
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:16,770
along and says hey you know this

316
00:12:20,990 --> 00:12:18,450
bacteria causes ulcers and they're all

317
00:12:22,490 --> 00:12:21,000
like yeah that's nonsense and then he

318
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:22,500
does an experiment and demonstrates it

319
00:12:26,330 --> 00:12:24,690
and then science changes he had these

320
00:12:29,450 --> 00:12:26,340
paradigm shifts but these are very very

321
00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:29,460
rare and they also come along with with

322
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:33,630
replicable evidence so you know having a

323
00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:36,480
small number of scientists like disagree

324
00:12:40,970 --> 00:12:39,270
with something yeah sure maybe they are

325
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:40,980
right but if they don't really have the

326
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:43,200
evidence to back it up then you know in

327
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:44,760
the absence of that I'm gonna go with

328
00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:48,770
the consensus right what we have here

329
00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:51,180
maybe there's a consensus Sciences I

330
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:52,830
don't know if there is consensus Society

331
00:12:58,700 --> 00:12:56,160
of scientists that leaves that wtc7 came

332
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:58,710
down due to fire I know there's been a

333
00:13:06,530 --> 00:13:00,800
proper study and even if there was a

334
00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:06,540
proper survey you know yeah I know yeah

335
00:13:11,390 --> 00:13:09,420
like a consensus to me like a consensus

336
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:11,400
that you should that shouldn't even be a

337
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,200
term a scientific consensus because

338
00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:15,360
there's consensus isn't scientific space

339
00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:17,160
very nature it's pseudoscience and there

340
00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:18,990
are lettuce you say there's many

341
00:13:22,430 --> 00:13:21,000
instances of scientists getting things

342
00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:22,440
wrong and then

343
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:23,910
when something is kind of politicized

344
00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:25,440
like this I think the dangers of

345
00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:28,230
scientists just lay hiding behind a safe

346
00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:32,310
opinion it's very high this let's let's

347
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:34,710
talk about the consensus thing a bit I

348
00:13:38,030 --> 00:13:36,600
participated in a study I don't we

349
00:13:38,780 --> 00:13:38,040
talked about this before it was about

350
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:38,790
chemtrails

351
00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:42,300
and we wanted to get like some kind of

352
00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:43,980
what is the scientific consensus about

353
00:13:50,090 --> 00:13:48,120
about chemtrails so it was some of the

354
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:50,100
scientists who initiated this study and

355
00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:51,630
these were people who would do doing

356
00:13:55,190 --> 00:13:53,430
geoengineering research and they were a

357
00:13:56,390 --> 00:13:55,200
bit fed up with people like you know

358
00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:56,400
claiming that they were destroying the

359
00:14:00,290 --> 00:13:57,630
world when they weren't actually doing

360
00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:00,300
anything at all yet right and so they

361
00:14:04,010 --> 00:14:01,710
said like well let's get some scientific

362
00:14:06,380 --> 00:14:04,020
consensus on what these these trails in

363
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:06,390
the sky actually are so we got together

364
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:09,120
like four pictures of trails that the

365
00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:10,290
chemtrail people thought was suspicious

366
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,110
and we got a bunch of chemical tests

367
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:15,360
that they said were suspicious and then

368
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:17,610
we took those and we we brought them to

369
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:20,820
a expert scientist a scientist soon who

370
00:14:24,620 --> 00:14:22,380
knew about the atmosphere allosteric

371
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:24,630
scientists basically and asked them you

372
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:26,970
know what did these pictures show what

373
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:29,850
did these chemical tests show and the

374
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:32,250
consensus that we got from the these

375
00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:33,870
scientists there's about 70 odd

376
00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:35,880
scientists I think that we managed to

377
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:39,270
get to talk on the record was that these

378
00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:41,250
were pictures of contrails and that the

379
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:42,180
chemical trap

380
00:14:45,980 --> 00:14:44,370
test didn't show anything out of the

381
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:45,990
ordinary even though the chemtrail

382
00:14:50,210 --> 00:14:48,240
people said they did so we got this

383
00:14:52,130 --> 00:14:50,220
essentially a scientific consensus from

384
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:52,140
a sampling of scientists who didn't ask

385
00:14:57,980 --> 00:14:55,440
all the scientists and we we published a

386
00:14:59,420 --> 00:14:57,990
paper looks like showed these results

387
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,430
and so now there's a published paper

388
00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:01,760
that has the scientific consensus on

389
00:15:08,210 --> 00:15:04,140
what these these trails in the sky

390
00:15:10,190 --> 00:15:08,220
actually are now if if we could do

391
00:15:11,690 --> 00:15:10,200
something similar this is actually

392
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:11,700
something I've thought of trying to do

393
00:15:17,510 --> 00:15:13,760
if we could do something similar with

394
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:17,520
let's say structural engineers easily we

395
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:19,650
got a true random sampling of say a

396
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:22,350
hundred structural engineers and we

397
00:15:27,079 --> 00:15:25,230
asked them do you think that this was a

398
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:27,089
controlled demolition and we present you

399
00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:29,130
know the the evidence from architects

400
00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:30,870
and engineers for 9/11 truth you know

401
00:15:35,329 --> 00:15:32,520
here's the 10 points the rapid collapse

402
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:35,339
blah blah blah right and we show this to

403
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:36,070
a hundred engine

404
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:39,519
and say 98 of those hundred engineers

405
00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:42,910
said this is this is just fire driven

406
00:15:46,019 --> 00:15:44,110
collapse it's not a controlled

407
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:46,029
demolition and you know a final answer

408
00:15:49,230 --> 00:15:47,920
and there's a couple who said they're

409
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:49,240
not they're not sure maybe there's one

410
00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:50,410
who says he thinks it's controlled

411
00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:52,660
demolition if you had that degree of

412
00:15:59,100 --> 00:15:56,980
like 95% plus of the surveyed structural

413
00:16:01,410 --> 00:15:59,110
engineers would that have any influence

414
00:16:04,980 --> 00:16:01,420
at all on on your thinking on the

415
00:16:07,860 --> 00:16:04,990
subject at the just a bunch of people

416
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:07,870
saying yes or no probably not but if

417
00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:09,220
they're willing to talk about it and

418
00:16:12,689 --> 00:16:11,740
discuss their ideas and that I think

419
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:12,699
that's always gonna be an interesting

420
00:16:17,009 --> 00:16:14,800
conversation I'm always open to new

421
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:17,019
viewpoints but if a viewpoint is yes or

422
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:18,490
no it has read too much for me

423
00:16:24,449 --> 00:16:21,300
and aspera is like proving something

424
00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:24,459
scientifically I you know we asked a

425
00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:25,720
hundred scientists no that doesn't prove

426
00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:27,220
anything so typically in fact

427
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:29,649
know-nothing committee in my mind I

428
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:30,970
think already proved anything either way

429
00:16:36,540 --> 00:16:33,279
but the best thing we have is the

430
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:36,550
scientific method I think right this day

431
00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:38,050
and age it seems that people talk about

432
00:16:42,090 --> 00:16:40,360
whole science if you believe this your

433
00:16:43,710 --> 00:16:42,100
scientific and if you believe this your

434
00:16:46,259 --> 00:16:43,720
anti-scientific and your anti science

435
00:16:47,819 --> 00:16:46,269
right now science isn't a set of dogma

436
00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:47,829
that's religion you're getting confused

437
00:16:53,490 --> 00:16:51,550
with religion science is oppressive

438
00:16:56,610 --> 00:16:53,500
science is a process of proving

439
00:16:59,689 --> 00:16:56,620
questioning trying to falsify repeating

440
00:17:02,129 --> 00:16:59,699
that's a scientific method and I think

441
00:17:04,289 --> 00:17:02,139
we thought we were all agreed on this

442
00:17:08,399 --> 00:17:04,299
that the site this the scientific method

443
00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:08,409
is how you show things and if I get what

444
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:09,790
you're saying it's like it's the

445
00:17:13,140 --> 00:17:11,890
innocent question but it's it does

446
00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:13,150
bother me how

447
00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:15,790
as a society we seem to be drifting from

448
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:17,470
the idea of the scientific method and

449
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:20,770
that's isn't that what science is I mean

450
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:22,480
I'm here I know I'm saying as I'm asking

451
00:17:26,220 --> 00:17:24,010
there's you're more of a science a

452
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:26,230
science based person than I am

453
00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:28,720
so let's read my question to you well I

454
00:17:31,710 --> 00:17:30,100
wasn't really thinking about asking

455
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:31,720
scientists there I was thinking about

456
00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:34,240
asking a structural engineers like like

457
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:38,500
experts in suppose the same know but in

458
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:40,090
terms of just by trying to find

459
00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:41,200
consensus of Mogo

460
00:17:46,530 --> 00:17:44,590
experts rather than trying to apply the

461
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:46,540
scientific methods I mean you do see a

462
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:49,090
huge disparity between those two things

463
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:49,850
surely

464
00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:52,610
well like suppose like you know your car

465
00:17:55,690 --> 00:17:54,230
was making a funny noise and you took it

466
00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:55,700
to a hundred different mechanics and

467
00:17:58,960 --> 00:17:57,890
like 99 of them says that there's a fan

468
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:58,970
belt

469
00:18:03,220 --> 00:18:01,280
are you going to then demand that they

470
00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:03,230
all do scientific experiments to show

471
00:18:11,050 --> 00:18:08,740
that dodgy fan belts make this noise see

472
00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:11,060
is it do you have an ultimate point in

473
00:18:14,650 --> 00:18:12,350
your trying to eat trying to say that

474
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,660
the consensus is more effective I'm not

475
00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:16,400
saying it's more segments I'm saying

476
00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:18,470
that it's something that is a valuable

477
00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:20,300
part of your consideration like if

478
00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:21,740
you're trying to decide like whether you

479
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:23,900
think the strong evidence that 9/11 was

480
00:18:28,810 --> 00:18:25,520
an inside job if you think you're trying

481
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:28,820
to figure out if there's some reason for

482
00:18:32,650 --> 00:18:31,130
actually suspecting that this is true

483
00:18:34,210 --> 00:18:32,660
and you're trying to assign some

484
00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:34,220
probability as to whether it's true or

485
00:18:39,670 --> 00:18:37,790
not then if you've got like a hundred

486
00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:39,680
engineers are telling you that in their

487
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:42,560
professional opinion they've looked at

488
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:44,750
the evidence and they think that it's

489
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,880
this isn't that going to be something

490
00:18:51,460 --> 00:18:48,320
that would actually influence your

491
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:51,470
thinking or do you basically say it

492
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:53,090
doesn't matter what any expert says it

493
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:55,010
doesn't matter if a thousand experts

494
00:18:58,540 --> 00:18:57,170
also the same thing you know unless you

495
00:19:01,000 --> 00:18:58,550
can show me a model of the building

496
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:01,010
collapsing I'm gonna say these experts

497
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:02,090
might be all wrong

498
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,650
well I'm gonna say what I said before is

499
00:19:11,050 --> 00:19:08,960
is if the experts have something to say

500
00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:11,060
then I'm always definitely interested in

501
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:12,470
listening to what what people have to

502
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:14,510
say about it I want to hear but if it's

503
00:19:18,460 --> 00:19:16,970
just a case yes or no that's not really

504
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:18,470
interesting to me and if you're going to

505
00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:20,330
increase the appraiser survey in front

506
00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:21,500
of me it's it's all Nocona and you say

507
00:19:25,210 --> 00:19:23,300
no then well that doesn't really tell me

508
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:25,220
anything it just all it is it's like a

509
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:27,050
finger pointing me saying you're wrong

510
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:29,360
which listen I'm more than prepared to

511
00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:31,690
be wrong but you show me they show you

512
00:19:36,370 --> 00:19:34,670
discuss with me let's talk about the

513
00:19:39,820 --> 00:19:36,380
important points or let's apply the

514
00:19:41,950 --> 00:19:39,830
scientific method so that's this I guess

515
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:41,960
that's where I stand on it yeah yeah

516
00:19:45,130 --> 00:19:43,550
well actually when we did the the

517
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:45,140
chemtrails study we didn't just ask them

518
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:47,510
yes or no on on these photographs and

519
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:50,720
said here's the photograph and can you

520
00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:53,840
say what you think it is why you think

521
00:19:59,230 --> 00:19:56,360
that it's this thing and if possible

522
00:20:02,620 --> 00:19:59,240
supply a reference to something that

523
00:20:05,019 --> 00:20:02,630
supports this this belief

524
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:05,029
they would show them like a picture of a

525
00:20:09,159 --> 00:20:07,130
contrail that's got colors in it and

526
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:09,169
then they will say I think this is an

527
00:20:12,430 --> 00:20:10,850
aerodynamic on-trail and the colors are

528
00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:12,440
caused by diffraction and interference

529
00:20:18,340 --> 00:20:16,820
effects and and then some of them are

530
00:20:20,590 --> 00:20:18,350
will explain like how this actually

531
00:20:22,299 --> 00:20:20,600
occurs and some of them actually gave

532
00:20:24,850 --> 00:20:22,309
the references to papers that showed

533
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:24,860
similar things happening so it wasn't

534
00:20:27,549 --> 00:20:26,570
just yes or no it was actually they

535
00:20:30,850 --> 00:20:27,559
actually had to give it some thought

536
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,860
actually actually justify their their

537
00:20:37,269 --> 00:20:32,960
beliefs now if I could get like the

538
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:37,279
engineers to say you know the building's

539
00:20:41,769 --> 00:20:38,809
fell rapidly

540
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:41,779
can you explain briefly why they fell so

541
00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:43,720
rapidly and why it wouldn't require

542
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:45,769
explosives and they gave like a short

543
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:48,080
you know two paragraph explanation like

544
00:20:52,869 --> 00:20:50,000
saying a column buckling floor floor

545
00:20:54,970 --> 00:20:52,879
stripping or whatever like that would

546
00:20:56,139 --> 00:20:54,980
would that be a useful thing yeah I

547
00:20:58,869 --> 00:20:56,149
think that could be very useful

548
00:21:00,220 --> 00:20:58,879
I'd always I'm always opening to hearing

549
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:00,230
stuff like that I want to hear stuff

550
00:21:04,389 --> 00:21:01,490
like I want to hear what people have to

551
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:04,399
say and then one of the points I was

552
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:07,690
making in a previous conversation was

553
00:21:16,930 --> 00:21:12,320
from a persuasion viewpoint the people

554
00:21:19,149 --> 00:21:16,940
who try not hold the if the official

555
00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:19,159
story of what happened the official

556
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:22,820
narrative way behind the conspiracy

557
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:26,450
theorist so from say I was watching

558
00:21:32,110 --> 00:21:28,129
Richard gage from architects engineers

559
00:21:34,450 --> 00:21:32,120
for 9/11 truth and he was doing a talk

560
00:21:36,220 --> 00:21:34,460
is one hour it was an hour way I guess

561
00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:36,230
he just put his whole presentation put

562
00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:39,409
all his best information forward and at

563
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:41,870
the beginning he took a little survey

564
00:21:48,369 --> 00:21:43,370
among the people I guess they're about

565
00:21:52,299 --> 00:21:48,379
200 people there and maybe half of them

566
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:52,309
were either believed the official story

567
00:21:57,340 --> 00:21:55,129
or kind of unsure like we could go

568
00:22:00,610 --> 00:21:57,350
either way and then at the end he got

569
00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:00,620
everyone his hands up again and I think

570
00:22:05,019 --> 00:22:02,600
they were about 25 people who were

571
00:22:06,509 --> 00:22:05,029
unsure and one person who believed you

572
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:06,519
know still believe the official story

573
00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:09,110
because it was a very very persuasive

574
00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:13,700
hour of information and you know I'd

575
00:22:16,539 --> 00:22:15,470
love to see something like that from the

576
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:16,549
other side

577
00:22:20,859 --> 00:22:18,830
and so and then the best that you have

578
00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:20,869
on your site if we're going to talk

579
00:22:23,829 --> 00:22:22,309
about signs I'm on one side and you're

580
00:22:27,249 --> 00:22:23,839
on the other side if we're going to talk

581
00:22:28,839 --> 00:22:27,259
about sides then your site you had 16

582
00:22:31,449 --> 00:22:28,849
million dollars spent on this nice

583
00:22:33,729 --> 00:22:31,459
report you have a computer model which

584
00:22:35,349 --> 00:22:33,739
I'm sure cost a lot of money to do that

585
00:22:37,629 --> 00:22:35,359
doesn't show the collapse the most

586
00:22:40,209 --> 00:22:37,639
important part you have the you have

587
00:22:43,449 --> 00:22:40,219
data that hasn't been released and and

588
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:43,459
then there's zero discussion afterwards

589
00:22:46,329 --> 00:22:44,809
and there is there's quite a few

590
00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:46,339
anomalies on that day there are a few

591
00:22:51,159 --> 00:22:48,200
things that well they don't necessarily

592
00:22:54,759 --> 00:22:51,169
prove conspiracy they are worthy of

593
00:22:59,859 --> 00:22:54,769
discussion and you know I think really

594
00:23:02,499 --> 00:22:59,869
look I haven't been crusading for the

595
00:23:04,749 --> 00:23:02,509
9/11 truth movement I can until we had

596
00:23:06,069 --> 00:23:04,759
that discussion the other day I hadn't

597
00:23:07,479 --> 00:23:06,079
really been thinking about it much for

598
00:23:10,329 --> 00:23:07,489
years and years and years there's not

599
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:10,339
something that dominates my life but you

600
00:23:13,719 --> 00:23:11,570
know for a couple of days before we

601
00:23:15,969 --> 00:23:13,729
talked I was doing some research just to

602
00:23:18,369 --> 00:23:15,979
you know so that I could actually have a

603
00:23:20,049 --> 00:23:18,379
proper conversation with you and it and

604
00:23:21,699 --> 00:23:20,059
it did jog my memory and I was like yeah

605
00:23:23,259 --> 00:23:21,709
there are a lot of questions here and

606
00:23:26,769 --> 00:23:23,269
still after all these years after what

607
00:23:28,959 --> 00:23:26,779
18 years we still haven't had answers to

608
00:23:31,749 --> 00:23:28,969
a lot of these questions and no matter

609
00:23:33,999 --> 00:23:31,759
what you say about conspiracy theorists

610
00:23:36,099 --> 00:23:34,009
they were there whether or not these

611
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:36,109
people are right or wrong I think these

612
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:38,570
questions are still legitimate and and

613
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:40,159
that's why I really wanted to talk to

614
00:23:43,180 --> 00:23:41,450
you and I do really good time so I'll

615
00:23:44,709 --> 00:23:43,190
get to you it's really fun to me but

616
00:23:47,799 --> 00:23:44,719
that's why what it's talk to you is is

617
00:23:49,629 --> 00:23:47,809
because there are all these questions

618
00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:49,639
yeah there's a lot of stuff that is

619
00:23:53,879 --> 00:23:51,769
unresolved and well and I think he'll

620
00:23:56,649 --> 00:23:53,889
from your point of view from your site

621
00:23:58,569 --> 00:23:56,659
if you have the information if you can

622
00:24:02,049 --> 00:23:58,579
if you can disprove the conspiracy there

623
00:24:04,899 --> 00:24:02,059
is police please bring it to it ends put

624
00:24:06,159 --> 00:24:04,909
us out of our misery we're still waiting

625
00:24:08,859 --> 00:24:06,169
we're still waiting I'm trying I'm

626
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:08,869
trying so yeah like you talked about the

627
00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:12,289
two sides like and you know we're I mean

628
00:24:17,229 --> 00:24:15,529
we're we're not on we're not people at

629
00:24:19,449 --> 00:24:17,239
war here we're both like trying to

630
00:24:23,139 --> 00:24:19,459
figure out what's true there on the same

631
00:24:26,229 --> 00:24:23,149
signs yeah we are different is it wrong

632
00:24:28,539 --> 00:24:26,239
yeah yeah on certain aspects oh yeah we

633
00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:28,549
both trying to get to the truth we could

634
00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:29,960
join for us on that but it's actually

635
00:24:32,350 --> 00:24:30,350
it's more

636
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:32,360
fun to have a discussion if one person

637
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:33,710
takes one side in one person takes

638
00:24:38,919 --> 00:24:35,090
another oh is that that's more

639
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:38,929
interesting dynamic is what you want to

640
00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:40,610
do do you just want to have fun or do

641
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:41,990
you want to figure out what's true it's

642
00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:45,710
like trying to I like to have fun but I

643
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:47,929
wouldn't I wouldn't try to just take a

644
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:50,330
side just because it's fun to argue a

645
00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:52,370
certain position otherwise I'd be you

646
00:24:56,919 --> 00:24:54,200
know I'd be trying out arguing the 911

647
00:24:59,529 --> 00:24:56,929
side and I just for fun I think my point

648
00:25:01,450 --> 00:24:59,539
is it if it was if I was on the same

649
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:01,460
side as you no one would really want to

650
00:25:06,490 --> 00:25:04,580
listen to it to this podcast and you

651
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:06,500
should be talking to somebody else you

652
00:25:11,649 --> 00:25:08,890
know you should find somebody else too I

653
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:11,659
have talked to 911 debuggers as well as

654
00:25:15,399 --> 00:25:13,970
well people who are no living believers

655
00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:15,409
and yeah this you get interesting

656
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:17,390
conversations on both sides mostly about

657
00:25:22,510 --> 00:25:18,799
that the fact that there is a conflict

658
00:25:23,950 --> 00:25:22,520
is yes what what the issue is well I

659
00:25:26,770 --> 00:25:23,960
guess maybe I'm speaking more personally

660
00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:26,780
because I I love getting into

661
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:29,270
discussions and debates with people but

662
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:31,010
in a friendly way and sometimes they

663
00:25:37,330 --> 00:25:33,440
learned a lot more than you know and I'm

664
00:25:39,789 --> 00:25:37,340
able to impart so it's I think friendly

665
00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:39,799
discussions especially people trying to

666
00:25:44,620 --> 00:25:41,750
get to the truth it's a healthy thing

667
00:25:49,419 --> 00:25:44,630
and for me it is a fun thing it is fun

668
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:49,429
for me yeah so when you you know you you

669
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:51,530
went you do your research recently

670
00:25:56,770 --> 00:25:53,600
before using this other this other

671
00:26:00,130 --> 00:25:56,780
podcast and you spend a few days looking

672
00:26:01,659 --> 00:26:00,140
at things you know and he said you saw

673
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:01,669
this this this one taught by Richard

674
00:26:05,649 --> 00:26:03,890
gage right hand and they said all this

675
00:26:07,659 --> 00:26:05,659
is a bunch of good points now do you

676
00:26:10,330 --> 00:26:07,669
feel like he became a bit kind of more

677
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:10,340
convinced of the the 911 is an inside

678
00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:13,760
job controlled demolition viewpoints

679
00:26:17,890 --> 00:26:15,980
after your research see to this three

680
00:26:19,390 --> 00:26:17,900
days of research you think you were more

681
00:26:21,450 --> 00:26:19,400
convinced of it after than you were

682
00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:21,460
beforehand

683
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:23,900
it's a really good question and I mean

684
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:26,720
in us in a way maybe I was but I wasn't

685
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:29,240
no not in the way that I used to be he

686
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:30,710
wasn't one of them I was very convinced

687
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:33,320
to myself now after realizing I've been

688
00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:34,850
wrong about so many things over the

689
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:39,440
years I've I've Airy little trust in any

690
00:26:44,110 --> 00:26:41,690
in any viewpoints so I'm I'm always

691
00:26:47,770 --> 00:26:44,120
looking to prove what is true

692
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:47,780
any viewpoint and I'm always open to new

693
00:26:53,770 --> 00:26:49,690
information and I want you information

694
00:26:57,820 --> 00:26:53,780
but I think what I became more convinced

695
00:26:58,930 --> 00:26:57,830
of was that these questions and

696
00:27:03,010 --> 00:26:58,940
legitimate questions and they're not

697
00:27:04,570 --> 00:27:03,020
being addressed all right all right did

698
00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:04,580
you find the experience different like

699
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:07,160
in terms of what you actually found on

700
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:08,510
the internet because I know YouTube have

701
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:10,310
changed their algorithms so this seems

702
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:12,770
less conspiracy stuff on there now like

703
00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:14,960
when you were searching what do you

704
00:27:18,460 --> 00:27:16,310
think it seemed more balanced than it

705
00:27:22,510 --> 00:27:18,470
was before or more skewed in the other

706
00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:22,520
direction yeah years ago YouTube was um

707
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:25,340
was a conspiracy theorists delight and

708
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:28,430
now it's hard to define conspiracy

709
00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:31,760
theory stuff it's it's the first few

710
00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:34,190
things you see definitely not conspiracy

711
00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:35,750
theories I think I feel like a lot of

712
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:37,340
stuff has been purged or suppressed on

713
00:27:41,410 --> 00:27:39,050
YouTube I'm not saying that as a

714
00:27:42,490 --> 00:27:41,420
conspiracy theorist it's you know it's

715
00:27:45,910 --> 00:27:42,500
the way they want to run their site

716
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:45,920
that's fine but it's um yeah it was it

717
00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:48,650
was probably harder to find stuff so how

718
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:51,020
did you find the richer gauge talk that

719
00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:52,370
you watched actually that wasn't that

720
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:54,500
hard to find I mean because I remembered

721
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:56,450
I remembered his name okay so if you

722
00:27:59,560 --> 00:27:58,010
could type in Richard gage actually

723
00:28:00,610 --> 00:27:59,570
comes up but I'm not saying that

724
00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:00,620
everything's super suppressed

725
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:02,030
everything's you can still find a lot of

726
00:28:07,450 --> 00:28:05,930
stuff but before I felt there was just a

727
00:28:09,340 --> 00:28:07,460
lot more stuff and probably a lot of it

728
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:09,350
was rubbish as well you know maybe

729
00:28:16,150 --> 00:28:10,970
mainly YouTube have just got rid of a

730
00:28:17,650 --> 00:28:16,160
lot of the drafts yeah yeah I think but

731
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:17,660
definitely when you search now you don't

732
00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:19,610
you don't get the the conspiracy stuff

733
00:28:23,410 --> 00:28:21,260
at the top which you used to you get

734
00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:23,420
like you know CNN articles and things

735
00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:25,550
like that so it's changing yeah I was

736
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:28,100
wondering if if you could possibly like

737
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:32,570
cast yourself back to a 2001 like if if

738
00:28:37,630 --> 00:28:35,210
you'd searched online and they had been

739
00:28:40,030 --> 00:28:37,640
this kind of downplaying of conspiracy

740
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:40,040
material back then do you think you

741
00:28:46,030 --> 00:28:42,710
might you might not have you know pulled

742
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:46,040
down that rabbit hole I don't know I

743
00:28:55,730 --> 00:28:48,170
mean it's I mean it's impossible to say

744
00:28:59,570 --> 00:28:55,740
now yeah some good digging you know yeah

745
00:29:03,470 --> 00:28:59,580
so do you believe in in other conspiracy

746
00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:03,480
theories I did a more extreme than the

747
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:05,880
9/11 controlled demolition conspiracy

748
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:08,130
theory

749
00:29:14,779 --> 00:29:11,130
I said chemtrails

750
00:29:17,060 --> 00:29:14,789
no no chemtrails chemtrails those looked

751
00:29:18,529 --> 00:29:17,070
into a little bit but then you know

752
00:29:21,549 --> 00:29:18,539
maybe I believed it for a minute but

753
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:21,559
then I couldn't really find anything to

754
00:29:27,230 --> 00:29:25,770
confirm those beliefs so I I don't even

755
00:29:28,639 --> 00:29:27,240
think about chemtrails I don't even know

756
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:28,649
whether the discussion is where it is

757
00:29:36,590 --> 00:29:31,440
two discussions out right now I don't

758
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:36,600
think I have any real extreme few points

759
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:38,880
even like 9/11 like I said I'm not a

760
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:40,500
crusader for it I just think there are

761
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:41,690
some questions that need to be answered

762
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:48,960
I'm more I I definitely believe that

763
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:50,399
there's something up with the mainstream

764
00:29:55,070 --> 00:29:53,520
media you know there's there's and I

765
00:29:57,649 --> 00:29:55,080
think the whole you know the whole deep

766
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,659
state thing that's becoming a story that

767
00:30:01,789 --> 00:29:59,279
I think there's something going on there

768
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:01,799
I think are they some controlling forces

769
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:03,330
behind everything that I think that's a

770
00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:05,760
strong possibility but I can't know any

771
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:07,289
of these things and I don't really know

772
00:30:11,299 --> 00:30:09,690
what my beliefs are but definitely

773
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:11,309
there's some things that are wrong look

774
00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:13,620
at the history of u.s. foreign policy

775
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:17,220
and you know ever since 9/11 we had

776
00:30:23,029 --> 00:30:21,120
Afghanistan we had Iraq Libya even some

777
00:30:26,409 --> 00:30:23,039
of the things happening in Syria and you

778
00:30:29,210 --> 00:30:26,419
know none of this is controversial but

779
00:30:31,789 --> 00:30:29,220
what is what always bothered me with

780
00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:31,799
Iraq and Afghanistan as well and Libya

781
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:33,870
as well was the way that the mainstream

782
00:30:41,090 --> 00:30:35,610
media was so complicit and everything

783
00:30:42,830 --> 00:30:41,100
that that we're doing and and where's

784
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:42,840
where's the voices that are questioning

785
00:30:45,889 --> 00:30:44,250
these things you know the mediator

786
00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:45,899
seemed to get things wrong on a regular

787
00:30:50,899 --> 00:30:49,529
basis they don't seem to be they don't

788
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:50,909
really seem to be on our side when it

789
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:54,390
comes to war and the the media has

790
00:30:58,299 --> 00:30:56,970
really helped our government make some

791
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:58,309
bad bad decisions

792
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:01,679
yeah you know talk about these things

793
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:02,970
how that bothered me more than

794
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:05,039
conspiracy theories you talked a lot

795
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:07,080
about the weapons of mass destruction a

796
00:31:11,510 --> 00:31:09,510
thing in a previous talk

797
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:11,520
where they made up evidence about

798
00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:14,010
weapons of mass destruction and they

799
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:16,740
went into Iraq and you said that you

800
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:19,380
thought the the big problem then like

801
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:20,880
you just said was that the media wasn't

802
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,930
talking about it and so you know you

803
00:31:28,430 --> 00:31:26,880
said that lots of people around you

804
00:31:29,870 --> 00:31:28,440
thought that there probably wasn't

805
00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:29,880
weapons of mass destruction but the

806
00:31:33,170 --> 00:31:32,100
media was all just basically repeating

807
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:33,180
the government line

808
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:36,170
he's a my question to you about that is

809
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:38,760
like and I remember this was quite

810
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:39,930
distinctly I remember talking to people

811
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:41,490
about it I was actually taking flying

812
00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:44,670
lessons I around that time which is like

813
00:31:52,190 --> 00:31:50,670
I think 2003 ish yeah and yeah I was

814
00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:52,200
taking flying lessons then I remember

815
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:53,790
talking to by flying instructor is a

816
00:31:58,340 --> 00:31:55,770
very conservative guy like supporter of

817
00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:58,350
the government and here we're talking

818
00:32:02,150 --> 00:31:59,370
about the weapons of mass destruction

819
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:02,160
and he was he was saying like yo I sure

820
00:32:05,090 --> 00:32:03,690
hope we find them there and I remember

821
00:32:06,350 --> 00:32:05,100
saying I don't I don't really think that

822
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,360
there are weapons of mass destruction

823
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:08,640
there I mean he's my real real evidence

824
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:10,910
and this was here at the time of the the

825
00:32:17,030 --> 00:32:15,360
invasion so how did I arrive at the

826
00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:17,040
knowledge that there were all these

827
00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:18,780
questions about this and how did you

828
00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:21,300
arrive at that and how did all your

829
00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:23,070
friends arrive at that and how did even

830
00:32:29,030 --> 00:32:25,230
my flight instructor who be aware of all

831
00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:29,040
these questions about WMDs if the media

832
00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:31,470
was so overwhelmingly in support of the

833
00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:36,870
government I know right I I ask myself

834
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:38,940
that as well like how did I know

835
00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:42,090
I like hey I'm not a genius how do I

836
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:44,940
know that we didn't like half a million

837
00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:46,620
people marching in New York against

838
00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:49,350
against the Iraq war how how all those

839
00:32:55,550 --> 00:32:50,990
people there marching against war

840
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:55,560
and then the government is still doesn't

841
00:32:58,460 --> 00:32:56,640
know they definitely got weapons of mass

842
00:33:00,560 --> 00:32:58,470
destruction we got to go to war and how

843
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:00,570
are we right and they were wrong but

844
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:02,400
you're saying the media is supporting

845
00:33:08,060 --> 00:33:04,640
the government and there must have been

846
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:08,070
some means the mainstream media where

847
00:33:15,230 --> 00:33:11,790
was one do you know MSNBC had this show

848
00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:15,240
on called Donahue and uh you know

849
00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:17,190
Donahue is back he was his comeback show

850
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:18,780
and it was one of the highest-rated

851
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:20,610
shows I think often it was the

852
00:33:25,690 --> 00:33:22,730
highest-rated show and from week two

853
00:33:30,130 --> 00:33:25,700
depending right so and it was the only

854
00:33:31,419 --> 00:33:30,140
show that the that has an anti-war

855
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:31,429
viewpoint you wouldn't talk about the

856
00:33:37,299 --> 00:33:34,850
war every time that he was here would

857
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:37,309
often have people on it would speak out

858
00:33:41,770 --> 00:33:40,130
against the Iraq war this was in the

859
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:41,780
run-up to the war and then all of a

860
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:44,690
sudden a show got Cannes and then it was

861
00:33:48,610 --> 00:33:46,640
in the underground like left when he

862
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:48,620
kind of media which I used to read a lot

863
00:33:53,289 --> 00:33:51,110
of at a time there was a there was an

864
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:53,299
article about how you know that were

865
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:55,010
there plenty of articles about how you

866
00:33:59,049 --> 00:33:56,570
know this one guy who is the anti-war

867
00:34:00,940 --> 00:33:59,059
guy Ben can from MSNBC and there was a

868
00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:00,950
highest-rated show and whatnot and then

869
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:02,630
the company years later there was this

870
00:34:06,669 --> 00:34:04,610
leaked memo who came out from some board

871
00:34:07,870 --> 00:34:06,679
meeting at MSNBC saying oh we gotta get

872
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:07,880
rid of this show because we don't want

873
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:10,010
to be the only we don't want to be the

874
00:34:14,619 --> 00:34:13,100
only network carrying an anti-war show

875
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:14,629
and everyone else is waving the flag for

876
00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:18,530
war and I remember my roommate at the

877
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:20,990
time he's watch a lot of cable TV so I

878
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:22,490
ended up watching a lot of cable TV

879
00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:24,530
myself because he is come home and sit

880
00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:27,020
down and be talking whatever the TV

881
00:34:31,930 --> 00:34:29,750
would be on the whole time so this was

882
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:31,940
the only show that we could find

883
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:33,679
there was an anti-war show and New York

884
00:34:38,349 --> 00:34:37,129
Times was very Pro what if anything

885
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:38,359
should be anti-war should be the New

886
00:34:42,609 --> 00:34:40,010
York Times right there was I think there

887
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,619
was some study done and I don't know the

888
00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:44,720
rest of the study but it was not very 90

889
00:34:47,919 --> 00:34:46,700
percent of the coverage in New York

890
00:34:49,389 --> 00:34:47,929
Times is pro war do you remember the

891
00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:49,399
Judith Miller thing remember the whole

892
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:52,520
thing with Judith Miller she was like I

893
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:55,190
will not release my sources and oh yeah

894
00:35:01,060 --> 00:34:58,880
who's like in the end her source was

895
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:01,070
Dick Cheney's assistant or something you

896
00:35:04,780 --> 00:35:02,810
know it was like some crazy thing where

897
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:04,790
the New York Times really went to bat

898
00:35:08,890 --> 00:35:07,490
for this Judith Miller and it like to

899
00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:08,900
protect their source in the end the

900
00:35:14,050 --> 00:35:12,200
source was it was the government and it

901
00:35:16,750 --> 00:35:14,060
was she said you just remember the time

902
00:35:19,210 --> 00:35:16,760
you know and I was I was I was rapidly

903
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:19,220
anti-war you know it's rabidly ng war

904
00:35:24,730 --> 00:35:22,640
and and you just know couldn't find any

905
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,740
support in the media because they'd be

906
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:26,720
saying that but you're also saying that

907
00:35:32,140 --> 00:35:28,430
all your friends were like anti-war as

908
00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:32,150
well and a few people that he would talk

909
00:35:35,950 --> 00:35:33,830
to about it and I wasn't talking to

910
00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:35,960
everybody about the war but yeah there

911
00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:36,700
was

912
00:35:41,539 --> 00:35:39,609
among by circle pikia Tiffany people

913
00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:41,549
were yeah I mean it's interesting but

914
00:35:46,049 --> 00:35:44,260
you trying to say that the medium must

915
00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:46,059
have been anti-war i think they listened

916
00:35:50,099 --> 00:35:48,700
enough not so much anti-war but like

917
00:35:52,799 --> 00:35:50,109
giving you the facts of like that there

918
00:35:55,049 --> 00:35:52,809
are these opposing voices and I remember

919
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:55,059
hands blick the nuclear weapons

920
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:57,250
inspector and see ya hear from the UN

921
00:36:00,210 --> 00:35:58,690
there was loads of stories about house

922
00:36:02,579 --> 00:36:00,220
Blake back then he was a guy who was

923
00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:02,589
kept saying that you know we should be

924
00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:04,089
we should be we should be going into

925
00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:06,280
Iraq and investigating and he doesn't

926
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:07,660
think there's no evidence of nuclear

927
00:36:11,849 --> 00:36:10,450
weapons there and there never was so

928
00:36:15,210 --> 00:36:11,859
there's all this stuff about about him

929
00:36:18,599 --> 00:36:15,220
and he was very critical of the war as I

930
00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:18,609
remember that meet you the media was

931
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:20,440
reporting on that yeah do you remember

932
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:22,390
you might we just do a real-time fact

933
00:36:27,870 --> 00:36:25,240
check I was gonna just search for like

934
00:36:29,099 --> 00:36:27,880
the Donahue show and see why why well

935
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:29,109
what the what it said on the internet

936
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:31,260
now about why it was canceled

937
00:36:40,260 --> 00:36:38,710
yeah so just just some some summarize

938
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:40,270
our research that we did over the last

939
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:41,890
two minutes because I'm probably going

940
00:36:48,539 --> 00:36:45,880
to ending this down it Donahue had two

941
00:36:51,299 --> 00:36:48,549
shows one in the 90s that got cancelled

942
00:36:53,339 --> 00:36:51,309
for low ratings because it wasn't as

943
00:36:55,770 --> 00:36:53,349
popular as the more tabloid style shows

944
00:36:59,819 --> 00:36:55,780
he was doing more hard news type stuff

945
00:37:03,569 --> 00:36:59,829
and then in 2002 he had a comeback which

946
00:37:07,410 --> 00:37:03,579
had initially like good ratings then it

947
00:37:10,380 --> 00:37:07,420
went down and they cancelled it but it

948
00:37:12,660 --> 00:37:10,390
actually was did very very well in the

949
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:12,670
last month I think probably after they

950
00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:15,520
announced the cancellation and he did

951
00:37:20,789 --> 00:37:17,380
better than chris matthews and joe

952
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:20,799
scarborough's show and this there is a

953
00:37:25,980 --> 00:37:24,190
mention of this this memo that Donnie

954
00:37:28,980 --> 00:37:25,990
you had to be fired because he would be

955
00:37:31,770 --> 00:37:28,990
quote a difficult public face for NBC in

956
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:31,780
a time of war but the reference to that

957
00:37:37,260 --> 00:37:34,960
doesn't doesn't seem to exist anymore

958
00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:37,270
even on the wayback machine i and the

959
00:37:44,010 --> 00:37:41,260
new york times made a public apology for

960
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:44,020
supporting the war in iraq I did I don't

961
00:37:46,609 --> 00:37:44,650
remember

962
00:37:50,279 --> 00:37:46,619
it's it entirely possible though because

963
00:37:52,109 --> 00:37:50,289
they were unquestioning in their belief

964
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:52,119
of what the government was was

965
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:53,890
spoon-feeding them about the the the

966
00:38:00,269 --> 00:37:57,249
WMDs so it certainly wouldn't surprise

967
00:38:02,279 --> 00:38:00,279
me okay so this is from this is from the

968
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:02,289
Guardian I don't have the date of the

969
00:38:06,449 --> 00:38:03,569
Guardians is the New York Times today

970
00:38:08,669 --> 00:38:06,459
issued an extraordinary Mia culpa over

971
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:08,679
its coverage of Iraq admitting it had

972
00:38:12,359 --> 00:38:10,089
been misled about the presence of

973
00:38:14,489 --> 00:38:12,369
weapons of mass destruction by sources

974
00:38:16,769 --> 00:38:14,499
including the controversial Iraqi leader

975
00:38:18,299 --> 00:38:16,779
a marsh lobby in a note to readers

976
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:18,309
published as owns the headline The Times

977
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:20,529
and Iraq Viesturs the newspaper said

978
00:38:23,759 --> 00:38:22,089
they had found a number of instances of

979
00:38:25,650 --> 00:38:23,769
coverage so it's not as rigorous as they

980
00:38:26,219 --> 00:38:25,660
should have been so there was a lot of

981
00:38:28,949 --> 00:38:26,229
hand-wringing

982
00:38:30,329 --> 00:38:28,959
after the fact you know I think there's

983
00:38:31,529 --> 00:38:30,339
no that's not in the realms of

984
00:38:34,229 --> 00:38:31,539
conspiracy theory right that's

985
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:34,239
researchable yeah yeah sure but I mean

986
00:38:37,469 --> 00:38:35,410
you see I think you're still kind of

987
00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:37,479
suggesting a kind of conspiracy there

988
00:38:41,939 --> 00:38:39,369
that there was a conspiracy in the media

989
00:38:44,130 --> 00:38:41,949
to downplay it deliberately but then how

990
00:38:46,469 --> 00:38:44,140
does this apology then tie in to that

991
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:46,479
why are they apologizing well by the

992
00:38:51,929 --> 00:38:49,089
time the Iraq war is started it's too

993
00:38:54,659 --> 00:38:51,939
late isn't it I mean they've done their

994
00:38:56,849 --> 00:38:54,669
job now I mean I'm not saying

995
00:38:59,249 --> 00:38:56,859
necessarily that was the case but that's

996
00:39:01,559 --> 00:38:59,259
the optics but you say you think that's

997
00:39:04,649 --> 00:39:01,569
the the apology that they're they're

998
00:39:06,499 --> 00:39:04,659
giving now is also part of you know what

999
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:06,509
they've been directed to do by their

1000
00:39:12,689 --> 00:39:09,729
corporate masters no no no that would be

1001
00:39:14,849 --> 00:39:12,699
whether they got it right by sorry but

1002
00:39:16,829 --> 00:39:14,859
they've got things wrong by design or by

1003
00:39:18,419 --> 00:39:16,839
mistake is still going to issue an

1004
00:39:21,149 --> 00:39:18,429
apology because he was trying to claw

1005
00:39:25,469 --> 00:39:21,159
back your credibility okay so my point

1006
00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:25,479
really is this is I after after the

1007
00:39:31,439 --> 00:39:28,049
weapons of mass destruction Fiasco the

1008
00:39:32,849 --> 00:39:31,449
the media and to large extent the

1009
00:39:35,849 --> 00:39:32,859
government and our intelligence services

1010
00:39:37,620 --> 00:39:35,859
lost a lot of credibility with me I'm

1011
00:39:40,349 --> 00:39:37,630
unwilling to take anything at face value

1012
00:39:43,529 --> 00:39:40,359
anymore and I think you know I think a

1013
00:39:44,999 --> 00:39:43,539
lot of people feel the same way and we

1014
00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:45,009
take things at face value because it's

1015
00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:46,630
the easy easy thing to do

1016
00:39:51,269 --> 00:39:49,390
it's but when people do it all the time

1017
00:39:53,099 --> 00:39:51,279
but you know a lot of people I remind

1018
00:39:54,959 --> 00:39:53,109
them you remember that whole weapons of

1019
00:39:57,269 --> 00:39:54,969
mass destruction thing and people a oh

1020
00:39:59,969 --> 00:39:57,279
yeah and yeah people know what I'm

1021
00:40:03,130 --> 00:39:59,979
talking about it was a news it was a

1022
00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:03,140
dark time for the press yeah no and I

1023
00:40:06,610 --> 00:40:05,120
remember that that time quite distinctly

1024
00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:06,620
but like I said I do remember there

1025
00:40:10,750 --> 00:40:08,750
being opposing voices as well but

1026
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,760
obviously if the New York Times is

1027
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:13,040
apologizing now then that they're doing

1028
00:40:18,070 --> 00:40:15,290
it because they're that coverage at the

1029
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:18,080
time really wasn't very good this

1030
00:40:21,580 --> 00:40:20,090
apology is really regarding I didn't

1031
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:21,590
have a date I apologize that this is

1032
00:40:25,870 --> 00:40:23,030
from a long time ago I'm sure this is

1033
00:40:27,340 --> 00:40:25,880
from here probably 2005 or something no

1034
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:27,350
it's very interesting that they did that

1035
00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:30,530
does that does that help at all the

1036
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:32,630
apology does it help restore a little

1037
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:35,450
bit of your faith in the media um

1038
00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:42,310
honestly no no really you know I mean

1039
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:45,140
okay so another thing they tell me what

1040
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:46,370
you think of this actually I was

1041
00:40:49,930 --> 00:40:47,690
interest I wanted to ask you this

1042
00:40:51,310 --> 00:40:49,940
the whole thing with Russia collusion

1043
00:40:53,170 --> 00:40:51,320
remember the whole national collusion

1044
00:40:54,580 --> 00:40:53,180
thing we have this mayor to know how

1045
00:40:56,740 --> 00:40:54,590
long the investigation is two years

1046
00:40:58,030 --> 00:40:56,750
three years and I always felt there

1047
00:41:00,010 --> 00:40:58,040
wasn't really any evidence there and I

1048
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:00,020
remember talking to a friend of mine and

1049
00:41:03,580 --> 00:41:01,730
I'm like we were just talking about it

1050
00:41:05,410 --> 00:41:03,590
and now as I said but what's the

1051
00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:05,420
evidence and this is another time when

1052
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:06,980
someone got kind of mad with me and it

1053
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:09,530
was just and that was the only question

1054
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:11,570
how slow what's the evidence and he said

1055
00:41:18,270 --> 00:41:13,910
I don't need any evidence anything I

1056
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:18,280
just know and I know he's normally we is

1057
00:41:21,820 --> 00:41:20,450
often has a different viewpoint to me

1058
00:41:24,070 --> 00:41:21,830
but we can have some nice fun

1059
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:24,080
conversations about stuff but this at

1060
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:26,000
this point he didn't seem like he was

1061
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:27,410
willing to have a nice friendly

1062
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:28,490
conversation about it

1063
00:41:34,180 --> 00:41:32,510
so just let it go but like I generally

1064
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:34,190
shy away from talking to people about

1065
00:41:40,590 --> 00:41:36,200
all this because Trump is such an

1066
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:40,600
emotive like figure who inspires such

1067
00:41:45,370 --> 00:41:43,760
amazing emotions but I always felt there

1068
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:45,380
wasn't anything there and I was waiting

1069
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:47,240
to hear the evidence but at the same

1070
00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:50,030
time the press with seemingly without

1071
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:53,060
any evidence seems to be seems to have

1072
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:55,040
fueled this whole thing and then when

1073
00:41:59,050 --> 00:41:56,690
the investigation happens and at the end

1074
00:42:02,080 --> 00:41:59,060
there's a oh yeah we can find anything

1075
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:02,090
well I mean I kind of thought that was

1076
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:05,330
going to happen to begin with and again

1077
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,250
the media is that proven to me that

1078
00:42:11,350 --> 00:42:09,440
they're not really trying to get to the

1079
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:11,360
truth I feel like they're just trying to

1080
00:42:14,590 --> 00:42:12,830
sell papers or like trying to get

1081
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:14,600
viewers know that there was two things

1082
00:42:18,470 --> 00:42:16,650
in that investigation there were

1083
00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:18,480
the collusion was there any collusion

1084
00:42:23,539 --> 00:42:21,089
between the director the Trump campaign

1085
00:42:25,789 --> 00:42:23,549
and the Russians and then it was like

1086
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:25,799
was the did the Russians interfere in

1087
00:42:30,019 --> 00:42:28,680
the election now would you agree that

1088
00:42:31,970 --> 00:42:30,029
there was evidence that the Russians

1089
00:42:33,799 --> 00:42:31,980
interfered in the election even if there

1090
00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:33,809
wasn't like actionable evidence that

1091
00:42:39,380 --> 00:42:36,990
that the Trump campaign was connected to

1092
00:42:41,329 --> 00:42:39,390
that well if I'm right the evidence that

1093
00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:41,339
the Russians interfere in the election

1094
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:45,660
is play some like clique farm that was

1095
00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:49,410
posting like rich bait articles that

1096
00:42:53,269 --> 00:42:51,569
there was some anti Trump stuff there's

1097
00:42:55,970 --> 00:42:53,279
auntie Clinton's stuff and it seemed

1098
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:55,980
like they were trying to sow discord and

1099
00:42:59,329 --> 00:42:57,839
they spent like a couple of couple

1100
00:43:03,109 --> 00:42:59,339
hundred thousand dollars and I think

1101
00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:03,119
that was the extent of of what we know

1102
00:43:08,809 --> 00:43:05,819
and it wasn't and and I think the ties

1103
00:43:11,630 --> 00:43:08,819
to the Kremlin or ties the government

1104
00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:11,640
are assumed but he'd sit whatever it was

1105
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:13,260
and I might have my facts and they'll be

1106
00:43:16,849 --> 00:43:14,640
wrong but whatever it was seemed pretty

1107
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:16,859
low-key it didn't seem like anything

1108
00:43:24,829 --> 00:43:21,690
crazy but they there was the I think

1109
00:43:26,329 --> 00:43:24,839
really the the the big thing was Russia

1110
00:43:27,799 --> 00:43:26,339
collusion whether or not Russia did

1111
00:43:29,359 --> 00:43:27,809
anything to interfere with our elections

1112
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:29,369
is one thing of course you know it's

1113
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:31,500
important she looked at I think the the

1114
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:35,010
thing that people was really had had a

1115
00:43:43,130 --> 00:43:39,440
be under their bonnets about was the

1116
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:43,140
Donald Trump colluding with Russia with

1117
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:45,210
the Russian government always put in to

1118
00:43:50,839 --> 00:43:47,700
win the election which I always felt

1119
00:43:53,690 --> 00:43:50,849
there was no evidence for and I mean

1120
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:53,700
dude did you were you into that did you

1121
00:43:58,839 --> 00:43:56,250
think there was no way I think your

1122
00:44:00,890 --> 00:43:58,849
thoughts yeah I think there isn't I

1123
00:44:04,849 --> 00:44:00,900
think there's not enough evidence to

1124
00:44:06,890 --> 00:44:04,859
convict him of doing that but I think

1125
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:06,900
neither mother report there was a lot of

1126
00:44:09,890 --> 00:44:08,400
connections he has a lot of stuff that

1127
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:09,900
was it could be argued to be

1128
00:44:14,569 --> 00:44:12,480
circumstantial the conclusion wasn't

1129
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:14,579
that you know Trump is absolutely

1130
00:44:19,579 --> 00:44:16,470
innocent the conclusion was that there

1131
00:44:21,410 --> 00:44:19,589
is enough evidence to support any kind

1132
00:44:23,779 --> 00:44:21,420
of prosecution what was the biggest

1133
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:23,789
piece of evidence for you that made you

1134
00:44:27,710 --> 00:44:25,200
think that it might be there might be

1135
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:27,720
something in there I think there's

1136
00:44:31,340 --> 00:44:29,730
things like the

1137
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:31,350
the meeting in Trump Tower where they

1138
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:33,650
had a meeting where there was a person

1139
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:37,050
from the Russian side who had some dirt

1140
00:44:42,650 --> 00:44:38,910
on Hillary Clinton that they were trying

1141
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,660
to sell and then later like Trump jr.

1142
00:44:46,849 --> 00:44:44,400
said oh there this meeting was just

1143
00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:46,859
about adoption or something like that

1144
00:44:50,359 --> 00:44:48,510
and then it came out later that there

1145
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:50,369
was a lot more people there and that's

1146
00:44:58,820 --> 00:44:53,430
the the the the meeting was actually

1147
00:45:00,500 --> 00:44:58,830
about the Russian people trying to give

1148
00:45:02,060 --> 00:45:00,510
this intelligence or sell this

1149
00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:02,070
intelligence or whatever to the Trump

1150
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:05,280
campaign or try to give give this dirt

1151
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:06,480
with it maybe there wasn't anything

1152
00:45:10,820 --> 00:45:08,010
there but it seemed like the Trump

1153
00:45:13,010 --> 00:45:10,830
campaign was trying to get dirt from

1154
00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:13,020
from this person on on Hillary Clinton

1155
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:15,630
who wasn't there cases like this is

1156
00:45:20,210 --> 00:45:17,970
someone was repeatedly emailing Donald

1157
00:45:21,530 --> 00:45:20,220
Trump jr. saying I let's have this

1158
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:21,540
meeting oh I've got some got some

1159
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:24,090
information from you know the Russians

1160
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:25,890
have some information Hillary Clinton we

1161
00:45:29,450 --> 00:45:27,420
want to tell you this information and

1162
00:45:30,859 --> 00:45:29,460
then finally don't run say yes that's

1163
00:45:33,340 --> 00:45:30,869
great and then they turn up this meeting

1164
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:33,350
and there's there's no information

1165
00:45:37,550 --> 00:45:35,730
that's what happened right yeah that's

1166
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:37,560
that's that's what he says but you know

1167
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:39,390
that that still indicates that he wanted

1168
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,730
to get information from from the

1169
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:43,680
Russians on you know people who were

1170
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:44,730
Russian he doesn't mean it was the

1171
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:47,400
Russian government but you know that was

1172
00:45:51,740 --> 00:45:49,890
the thing that kind of yes seemed clear

1173
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:51,750
to me that there was some kind of that

1174
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:53,310
they would do it if the Russian

1175
00:45:56,359 --> 00:45:54,690
government said here's some information

1176
00:45:58,099 --> 00:45:56,369
we packed into the DNC servers and we've

1177
00:45:59,930 --> 00:45:58,109
got this stuff and we're gonna leak it

1178
00:46:01,490 --> 00:45:59,940
is that okay with you you know this

1179
00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:01,500
thing's like what's his name

1180
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:04,609
Stone stone had connections with the

1181
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:07,170
WikiLeaks guy or somebody like that and

1182
00:46:11,090 --> 00:46:09,450
he he knew in advance that there was

1183
00:46:15,050 --> 00:46:11,100
going be this information dump from from

1184
00:46:17,870 --> 00:46:15,060
WikiLeaks about I can't remember what

1185
00:46:19,550 --> 00:46:17,880
the details were exactly but that there

1186
00:46:21,620 --> 00:46:19,560
are connections with him and like some

1187
00:46:23,570 --> 00:46:21,630
guy in Russia so the little things going

1188
00:46:27,230 --> 00:46:23,580
on here stones those in jail now he's in

1189
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:27,240
prison now for for lying about it he's

1190
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:29,040
in prison for a processed crime right

1191
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:31,140
you mean a process crime you mean that

1192
00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:32,850
lying to investigators

1193
00:46:36,740 --> 00:46:34,470
yeah it wasn't for anything that he did

1194
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:36,750
before the FBI started interviewing him

1195
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:38,160
he's like that's fine it's just because

1196
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:40,770
he said I guess he contradicts himself

1197
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:42,240
to the FBI

1198
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:43,530
whoever was questioning him and they're

1199
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:43,970
like

1200
00:46:47,810 --> 00:46:46,530
you lie to us therefore we be extending

1201
00:46:49,490 --> 00:46:47,820
the prison is that what happened with

1202
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:49,500
him I believe it's something like that

1203
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:51,510
but you know why was he lying you know

1204
00:46:55,609 --> 00:46:53,310
he feel lying to investigators that kind

1205
00:46:59,150 --> 00:46:55,619
of implies that yeah yeah you're yeah

1206
00:47:01,310 --> 00:46:59,160
you're covering up stuff like that there

1207
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:01,320
was other things as well like the the

1208
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:03,210
cyber attacks on the Democrats which

1209
00:47:10,730 --> 00:47:08,730
were organized by the GRU they were

1210
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:10,740
actually you know sending these phishing

1211
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:13,710
emails to people at the DNC trying to

1212
00:47:17,060 --> 00:47:15,359
like get the password so they can log in

1213
00:47:19,849 --> 00:47:17,070
and you know these are actual hacking

1214
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:19,859
attempts that were done by what

1215
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:23,310
intelligence services say was Russian

1216
00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:26,190
intelligence was doing this is that we

1217
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:27,780
have that actually you know we're

1218
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:29,250
getting into this whole sidelines about

1219
00:47:33,530 --> 00:47:31,290
talking about through the collusion

1220
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:33,540
thing I guess my point is and maybe we

1221
00:47:38,359 --> 00:47:35,940
disagree in it unlike it this this the

1222
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:38,369
information we had was not worthy over

1223
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:41,280
two or three year investigation and it

1224
00:47:46,849 --> 00:47:43,770
swallowed up a lot of a lot of media

1225
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:46,859
time and a lot of energy and it left us

1226
00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:49,260
not one tiny bit better and then we were

1227
00:47:53,150 --> 00:47:51,030
you know we didn't get anywhere with

1228
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,160
that well here we got a lot of people in

1229
00:47:56,599 --> 00:47:55,200
jail for some for actual crimes we've

1230
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:56,609
got a bunch of Russian nationals who are

1231
00:47:59,690 --> 00:47:58,170
charged with crimes we got a lot more

1232
00:48:03,490 --> 00:47:59,700
information about what the Russians

1233
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:03,500
actually did in terms of of hacking

1234
00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:06,210
attempts and doing all these targeted

1235
00:48:09,950 --> 00:48:08,220
ads on Facebook trying to influence the

1236
00:48:11,359 --> 00:48:09,960
election so I think you know we got a

1237
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:11,369
lot of stuff out of it if you read the

1238
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:12,570
Miller report there's lots of

1239
00:48:16,490 --> 00:48:14,130
interesting information in there you can

1240
00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:16,500
read through the the Wikipedia article

1241
00:48:20,329 --> 00:48:18,660
on Russian interference in the 2016 you

1242
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:20,339
know state elections very interesting

1243
00:48:25,220 --> 00:48:23,280
and lots of well referenced things from

1244
00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:25,230
the investigation so I wouldn't say

1245
00:48:30,530 --> 00:48:27,030
you've got nothing out today it just

1246
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:30,540
because like Trump comes off Trump

1247
00:48:34,849 --> 00:48:33,660
didn't get indicted on that I didn't it

1248
00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:34,859
doesn't mean that the investigation

1249
00:48:40,310 --> 00:48:36,990
yourself didn't uncover a bunch of

1250
00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:40,320
useful and actionable items but you know

1251
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,700
I think you know okay we are like they

1252
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:43,680
were getting into the the weeds of

1253
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:45,510
things you know I think it's interesting

1254
00:48:50,329 --> 00:48:47,730
like you know just I'm thinking about it

1255
00:48:52,849 --> 00:48:50,339
as we're talking you know why do I

1256
00:48:53,810 --> 00:48:52,859
believe what I believe and why do you

1257
00:48:55,250 --> 00:48:53,820
believe what you believe

1258
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:55,260
yeah I think we're both obviously we

1259
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:56,210
have our biases

1260
00:49:01,940 --> 00:48:59,280
you asked me you know what I thought of

1261
00:49:04,430 --> 00:49:01,950
the investigation and I was thinking

1262
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:04,440
back to it I don't I don't remember that

1263
00:49:07,910 --> 00:49:06,210
many of the details of it like so I had

1264
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:07,920
to go go and look on the Wikipedia page

1265
00:49:12,109 --> 00:49:10,020
and see see what I could remember and

1266
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:12,119
you know I think a lot of people kind of

1267
00:49:16,220 --> 00:49:14,880
accept things including me just accept

1268
00:49:18,890 --> 00:49:16,230
things without reading them in detail I

1269
00:49:20,450 --> 00:49:18,900
haven't read the entire Miller report

1270
00:49:22,490 --> 00:49:20,460
you know from end to end I read like

1271
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:22,500
little bits of it and I haven't really

1272
00:49:29,230 --> 00:49:24,690
looked into all this evidence but I do I

1273
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:29,240
guess I do accept a certain viewpoint

1274
00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:32,609
without fully investigating it and I

1275
00:49:38,660 --> 00:49:35,609
think this is this is a problem probably

1276
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:38,670
on both sides is that if you challenge

1277
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:40,410
me on something I can't always back it

1278
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:42,450
up straight away and I think listen

1279
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:44,400
that's true for everybody I think we all

1280
00:49:48,859 --> 00:49:46,440
do that to some extent or another I

1281
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:48,869
think you you know maybe you probably do

1282
00:49:54,020 --> 00:49:51,810
a lot less than most people but it's

1283
00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:54,030
it's just the way you were built is the

1284
00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:55,980
way things are and we live in this world

1285
00:50:00,109 --> 00:49:57,660
now with so much information so much

1286
00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:00,119
conflicting information and then have

1287
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:03,569
you ever heard of that that idea that we

1288
00:50:07,490 --> 00:50:06,210
have we'd like this all the Americans

1289
00:50:09,410 --> 00:50:07,500
are looking at the TV and we're watching

1290
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,420
two different movies watching two

1291
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:11,520
different movies play out any I say you

1292
00:50:14,540 --> 00:50:13,290
like someone takes that antitrump

1293
00:50:16,970 --> 00:50:14,550
viewpoint someone takes a crow Trump

1294
00:50:18,890 --> 00:50:16,980
viewpoint not only on different sized

1295
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,900
argument they're actually watching two

1296
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,400
different movies play out you're

1297
00:50:23,540 --> 00:50:21,839
watching the same things on the screen

1298
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,550
you're experiencing these things in

1299
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:25,440
completely different ways yeah when you

1300
00:50:28,609 --> 00:50:26,730
talk when I'm talking about the Russia

1301
00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:28,619
collusion I'm like it's a hoaxer what a

1302
00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:30,750
mess is like these people it's just like

1303
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:32,520
lies conjecture in England over there

1304
00:50:36,079 --> 00:50:33,930
but you're saying there's some serious

1305
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:36,089
things here there's you know in this I'm

1306
00:50:39,650 --> 00:50:37,890
not going to scan what you say because I

1307
00:50:41,359 --> 00:50:39,660
respect you I respect you insects you're

1308
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:41,369
a smart person you probably could make

1309
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:44,970
some good points the same time say it's

1310
00:50:48,980 --> 00:50:46,890
the way I feel about the whole Russia

1311
00:50:50,420 --> 00:50:48,990
collusion thing like this was a massive

1312
00:50:52,690 --> 00:50:50,430
waste of time I could have predicted the

1313
00:50:56,599 --> 00:50:52,700
ending for you you know with with

1314
00:51:00,290 --> 00:50:56,609
relative confidence the most in my

1315
00:51:03,650 --> 00:51:00,300
prediction coming true and and I would

1316
00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:03,660
have been right but it's we watching you

1317
00:51:07,460 --> 00:51:06,300
know it's two different completely two

1318
00:51:10,010 --> 00:51:07,470
different experiences but we were

1319
00:51:12,410 --> 00:51:10,020
watching a lot of the same stuff

1320
00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:12,420
yeah it's and it's a weird it's a weird

1321
00:51:17,630 --> 00:51:15,480
weird time and I think now unless into

1322
00:51:21,740 --> 00:51:17,640
listen into looking into conspiracy

1323
00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:21,750
theories because politics is such a

1324
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:24,750
crazy place and I don't have time to

1325
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:26,850
look into conspiracy theories like the

1326
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:28,950
news and you know the different

1327
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:31,680
viewpoints that's more than enough so to

1328
00:51:36,170 --> 00:51:33,510
fill up the part that part of my brain

1329
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:36,180
you know and I think the funny thing is

1330
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:37,770
I think a lot of people who support

1331
00:51:42,770 --> 00:51:40,890
Trump form a conspiracy theorists I

1332
00:51:44,060 --> 00:51:42,780
think that's a common thing and I think

1333
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:44,070
you'll find that and I think you'll find

1334
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:46,800
a lot of conspiracy theorists you talk

1335
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:48,570
to you probably aha by the Trump

1336
00:51:53,420 --> 00:51:49,890
supporters or at least sympathetic

1337
00:51:57,530 --> 00:51:53,430
towards Trump ya know you you see that

1338
00:51:59,420 --> 00:51:57,540
the whole q and on thing is a conspiracy

1339
00:52:01,070 --> 00:51:59,430
theory amongst Trump supporters

1340
00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:01,080
essentially which is it's interesting

1341
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:03,360
thing is that still big the people's to

1342
00:52:06,590 --> 00:52:04,650
pay attention so yeah I think I think

1343
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:06,600
it's kind of fading away because you

1344
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:07,920
know you didn't didn't nothing came true

1345
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:10,290
but it's still popular because it's such

1346
00:52:14,359 --> 00:52:12,810
an enticing thing but the only better

1347
00:52:15,530 --> 00:52:14,369
what you're saying about the the two

1348
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:15,540
movies although that was a fascinating

1349
00:52:18,770 --> 00:52:17,490
points and I think it's you know it's

1350
00:52:21,020 --> 00:52:18,780
great that you brought it up and I think

1351
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:21,030
it's something that people really really

1352
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:23,250
need to be aware of the when somebody

1353
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,930
else is watching something it's it's

1354
00:52:29,060 --> 00:52:26,160
they have a completely different

1355
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:29,070
perception and this kind of was hit home

1356
00:52:34,490 --> 00:52:31,170
for me recently I watched a documentary

1357
00:52:36,530 --> 00:52:34,500
called the brainwashing of my dad and in

1358
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:36,540
this documentary is about this woman

1359
00:52:41,210 --> 00:52:39,450
whose father has been kind of

1360
00:52:44,359 --> 00:52:41,220
brainwashed by listening to conservative

1361
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:44,369
talk radio and it becomes like a rush

1362
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:47,040
limbaugh de towhead and a very

1363
00:52:52,370 --> 00:52:49,680
conservative hating the Liberals you

1364
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:52,380
know hating immigration and welfare and

1365
00:52:54,890 --> 00:52:53,160
things like that

1366
00:52:57,530 --> 00:52:54,900
and so this is what the whole movies

1367
00:52:59,930 --> 00:52:57,540
about this this you know brainwashing by

1368
00:53:02,660 --> 00:52:59,940
conservative the conservative media and

1369
00:53:05,060 --> 00:53:02,670
then the mother the woman that the

1370
00:53:07,250 --> 00:53:05,070
daughter actually manages to kind of

1371
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:07,260
like bring him back to her side her

1372
00:53:12,650 --> 00:53:08,760
point of view the more liberal point of

1373
00:53:14,450 --> 00:53:12,660
view by switching his radio over to NPR

1374
00:53:16,490 --> 00:53:14,460
occasionally and so he gets a bit of

1375
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:16,500
that or leaving a copy of the economists

1376
00:53:20,510 --> 00:53:18,480
on his bedside table or something I

1377
00:53:22,220 --> 00:53:20,520
don't know exactly what she did and so

1378
00:53:25,579 --> 00:53:22,230
she kind of winds him back

1379
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:25,589
and so I kind of recommend this movie

1380
00:53:30,890 --> 00:53:26,730
because I thought it was very

1381
00:53:35,060 --> 00:53:30,900
interesting is that I have a a

1382
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:35,070
conservative friend who said she thought

1383
00:53:40,609 --> 00:53:37,410
that that the brainwashing aspect was

1384
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:40,619
all about the the woman brainwashing her

1385
00:53:46,190 --> 00:53:44,400
father to be a liberal so he's gonna let

1386
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:46,200
one man's brainwashed is another man's

1387
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:49,710
woke yeah it's like she thought that you

1388
00:53:53,060 --> 00:53:52,170
know this guy had been yeah and she

1389
00:53:54,859 --> 00:53:53,070
doesn't agree with everything rush

1390
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:54,869
limbaugh says obviously but she thought

1391
00:53:58,819 --> 00:53:56,970
that this guy had been woken up by the

1392
00:54:01,280 --> 00:53:58,829
conservative media to the you know the

1393
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:01,290
reality of like you know how bad like

1394
00:54:07,940 --> 00:54:04,079
runaway liberalism is and then she had

1395
00:54:09,980 --> 00:54:07,950
brainwashed him back to to being a

1396
00:54:11,660 --> 00:54:09,990
liberal whereas I thought that he had

1397
00:54:14,420 --> 00:54:11,670
been brainwashed by the conservative

1398
00:54:16,099 --> 00:54:14,430
radio and that she had woken him up back

1399
00:54:18,380 --> 00:54:16,109
to the reality of you know the

1400
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:18,390
liberalism is actually a good thing so

1401
00:54:21,770 --> 00:54:19,920
this is completely almost opposite now

1402
00:54:24,530 --> 00:54:21,780
it's that was really surprised when when

1403
00:54:26,089 --> 00:54:24,540
this happened and it's kind of like you

1404
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:26,099
know something I had to think about now

1405
00:54:30,290 --> 00:54:27,690
and then whenever you're talking to

1406
00:54:32,780 --> 00:54:30,300
somebody you've really got to see how

1407
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:32,790
are they how are they viewing this and I

1408
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:35,040
read a book recently called how to have

1409
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:36,960
impossible conversations by Peter

1410
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:41,040
Bogosian and and he talks about this and

1411
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:44,339
how people like on from different worlds

1412
00:54:48,980 --> 00:54:46,710
like say religious on done religious or

1413
00:54:50,990 --> 00:54:48,990
conservative or liberal often attach

1414
00:54:54,410 --> 00:54:51,000
very different meanings to words like

1415
00:54:55,819 --> 00:54:54,420
like morality and justice and and things

1416
00:54:58,819 --> 00:54:55,829
like that so if you talk about something

1417
00:55:01,099 --> 00:54:58,829
being you know like the right thing to

1418
00:55:02,809 --> 00:55:01,109
do people might have a very different

1419
00:55:05,180 --> 00:55:02,819
idea of what that is is a pragmatic

1420
00:55:08,210 --> 00:55:05,190
right thing to do or is it a noble

1421
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:08,220
justice based right thing to do or is it

1422
00:55:11,780 --> 00:55:10,170
based on principles is it based on you

1423
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:11,790
know what gives a certain desired

1424
00:55:16,460 --> 00:55:15,119
outcome so you you really have to be

1425
00:55:19,730 --> 00:55:16,470
aware of the only what the other

1426
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:19,740
person's use of languages and I think

1427
00:55:23,839 --> 00:55:21,390
often people are talking a completely

1428
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,849
cross purposes because of it and a

1429
00:55:27,710 --> 00:55:25,200
hundred percent that definitely happens

1430
00:55:29,359 --> 00:55:27,720
and what happens is this would like

1431
00:55:32,690 --> 00:55:29,369
people end up in their own echo chambers

1432
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:32,700
and you the Rush Limbaugh and NPR it's

1433
00:55:35,810 --> 00:55:34,140
like two totally different things never

1434
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:35,820
the twain shall meet

1435
00:55:39,770 --> 00:55:38,970
and yet really is in the in between in

1436
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:39,780
the middle they're having these

1437
00:55:44,330 --> 00:55:41,970
conversations is the best hope we have

1438
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:44,340
getting to the truth so just because

1439
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:46,890
someone's late believes all of what Rush

1440
00:55:50,180 --> 00:55:49,170
Limbaugh says doesn't mean they're

1441
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:50,190
incapable of having a proper

1442
00:55:53,180 --> 00:55:51,690
conversation not a lot of people are

1443
00:55:55,580 --> 00:55:53,190
capable of chiclet of changing their

1444
00:55:57,590 --> 00:55:55,590
minds or explaining their viewpoints and

1445
00:55:59,330 --> 00:55:57,600
I think like a lot of conservative

1446
00:56:01,760 --> 00:55:59,340
viewpoints are very interesting and can

1447
00:56:04,550 --> 00:56:01,770
be very helpful and same it's a lot of

1448
00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:04,560
liberal viewpoints too and you know I

1449
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:06,150
think what you're doing is trying to

1450
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:07,920
have conversations and trying to open up

1451
00:56:14,420 --> 00:56:12,240
lay discussions and and maybe even

1452
00:56:16,010 --> 00:56:14,430
debate you know but it's but just having

1453
00:56:16,910 --> 00:56:16,020
nice polite conversations and showing

1454
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,920
that people with different viewpoints

1455
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:18,720
are able to have for any discussions

1456
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:20,850
that's an important thing I think that's

1457
00:56:27,230 --> 00:56:25,530
kind of what's been missing because if

1458
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:27,240
you listen to Fox and if you listen to

1459
00:56:31,460 --> 00:56:29,370
MSNBC you're getting two completely

1460
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:31,470
different everyone's looking at the same

1461
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:32,940
thing but we're getting to two

1462
00:56:37,700 --> 00:56:34,890
completely different stories there's

1463
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:37,710
there's got to be some room for polite

1464
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:39,810
discussion and and trying to explore

1465
00:56:44,570 --> 00:56:42,330
these ideas and try and and try and

1466
00:56:46,970 --> 00:56:44,580
figure out where the truth really lies

1467
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:46,980
because I don't trust Fox

1468
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:48,960
I don't trust MSNBC I don't trust any of

1469
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:51,690
these people you can't I mean there's

1470
00:56:55,460 --> 00:56:53,850
and at the end of the day that's the

1471
00:56:58,880 --> 00:56:55,470
problem is there's no one that you can

1472
00:57:01,520 --> 00:56:58,890
trust you can trust NPR mm-hmm you can't

1473
00:57:02,060 --> 00:57:01,530
trust anybody because it everybody makes

1474
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:02,070
mistakes

1475
00:57:05,090 --> 00:57:03,330
everybody has a viewpoint the

1476
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:05,100
confirmation bias exists with everybody

1477
00:57:10,610 --> 00:57:08,160
you know we're all prone to it and and

1478
00:57:12,110 --> 00:57:10,620
the the worst thing is with this

1479
00:57:14,780 --> 00:57:12,120
horrible divide that we have in the

1480
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:14,790
country right now is the discussions

1481
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:17,370
aren't happening people aren't talking

1482
00:57:21,410 --> 00:57:19,260
as much as they should be and if they

1483
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:21,420
are it often tends to be angry you got

1484
00:57:26,420 --> 00:57:23,610
and Facebook you can see these these

1485
00:57:28,220 --> 00:57:26,430
conversations spray out and we don't

1486
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:28,230
need to be we don't need to be that way

1487
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:30,960
we can be we can just chill out we can

1488
00:57:33,890 --> 00:57:32,010
relax a little bit and have some

1489
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:33,900
friendly conversations and I don't think

1490
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:36,510
everything's gonna heal overnight but

1491
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:38,160
bit by bit with people like you doing

1492
00:57:41,630 --> 00:57:39,690
with what you doing what you're doing I

1493
00:57:45,020 --> 00:57:41,640
think there's more and more people who

1494
00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:45,030
want to have rational conversations who

1495
00:57:48,590 --> 00:57:46,590
want to have friendly discussions with

1496
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:48,600
people they disagree with gradually

1497
00:57:52,070 --> 00:57:49,770
maybe things can hear

1498
00:57:55,010 --> 00:57:52,080
but right now the country's in such a

1499
00:57:58,250 --> 00:57:55,020
state like politically that it's um it's

1500
00:58:00,500 --> 00:57:58,260
almost disturbing really yeah yes and

1501
00:58:01,730 --> 00:58:00,510
yeah that's yes I totally agree with all

1502
00:58:03,590 --> 00:58:01,740
of that and I think that having these

1503
00:58:06,140 --> 00:58:03,600
conversations is very important and it's

1504
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:06,150
just partly why I do it and I think that

1505
00:58:10,550 --> 00:58:08,640
yeah this is going to be more of this

1506
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:10,560
going forward because people are

1507
00:58:15,890 --> 00:58:13,110
realizing the this this division in the

1508
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:15,900
country is is very harmful and heading

1509
00:58:20,510 --> 00:58:17,970
in a harmful direction and that we need

1510
00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:20,520
to talk to each other even if we greatly

1511
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:21,630
disagree with each other

1512
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:23,130
we need to actually have a conversation

1513
00:58:29,359 --> 00:58:25,850
so we can at the very least understand

1514
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:29,369
each other and then try to move forward

1515
00:58:35,180 --> 00:58:31,890
even if we disagree we at least

1516
00:58:37,070 --> 00:58:35,190
understand each other and we can do

1517
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:37,080
something constructive rather than the

1518
00:58:44,090 --> 00:58:41,040
destructive yeah so that's that's a very

1519
00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:44,100
I think a very good place to close

1520
00:58:47,780 --> 00:58:46,140
things out on there's anything else you

1521
00:58:50,660 --> 00:58:47,790
wanted to touch on before before we

1522
00:58:52,430 --> 00:58:50,670
finish up no no but you know if you ever

1523
00:58:54,290 --> 00:58:52,440
want to chat again make ways down

1524
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:54,300
I enjoy working with you yeah no that's

1525
00:58:58,430 --> 00:58:55,710
definitely we can we can do another one

1526
00:59:00,800 --> 00:58:58,440
on 911 we can do a World Trade Center

1527
00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:00,810
building 7 specific or we can do more

1528
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:03,960
broader topics because hey I'm always so

1529
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:07,530
was that for a good 9/11 discussion all

1530
00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:09,090
right sounds good man thank you very

1531
00:59:12,620 --> 00:59:09,780
much tom

1532
00:59:14,359 --> 00:59:12,630
and hope to have you again on soon that

1533
00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:14,369
would be great thanks the other tnc have

1534
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:14,940
a great day man